#103 – Bruce Davis is here to inspire us with his transformative journey through running and obstacle course races that gave him a renewed sense of purpose after a devastating personal tragedy.
Bruce opens up about how endurance events offered him a sanctuary of peace and introspection, and the adrenaline rush of his first Spartan stadium run, which he candidly admits changed his life trajectory and got him hooked on racing.
Hear positive ways to cope after tremendous personal loss
Discover the keys to doing hard things in life and sports
Learn how to level-up when looking to improve your running game
Listen to how the running community can be a positive part of your life
Bruce was coming from a very difficult time and he found peace through endurance events and obstacle course races. This year Bruce has done 4 DEKA STRONGS, 3 DEKA MILES, 1 DEKA Fit, Hyrox, tough mudder, two Savage races, two rugged Maniacs, three Spartan races. Bruce also just finished up running his first half marathon and Spartan Beast. And this is only the beginning…
Rate, Review, & Follow on Apple Podcasts“Inspire to Run Podcast is truly inspiring!” <– If that sounds like you, please consider rating and reviewing my show! This helps me support more people — just like you — move toward the healthy life that they desire. Click here, scroll to the bottom, tap to rate with five stars, and select “Write a Review.” Then be sure to let me know what you loved most about the episode!
Richard Conner: [00:00:00] Hey, my friend, are you going through a difficult time in your life? Whether it’s related to family, your health or job? Well today our guest is going to share how finding running and races after a devastating loss in his life gave him a renewed sense of purpose and a healthy way to cope with that loss hope you enjoy
Intro: Welcome to inspire to run podcast. Here, you will find inspiration, whether you’re looking to take control of your health and fitness, or you are a seasoned runner looking for community and some extra motivation, you will hear inspiring stories from amazing runners, along with helpful tips from fitness experts.
Now, here’s your host Richard Conner.
Richard Conner: Hi, my friend, welcome to Inspire to Run Podcast today. I have the privilege of sitting down with Bruce Davis. Bruce was coming from a very difficult time and he found peace during endurance events and obstacle course races. This [00:01:00] year, Bruce has done four DEKA Strongs, three DEKA miles, one DEKA fit, Hyrox, tough mudder, two savage races, two rugged maniacs, and three Spartan races.
And he just finished up running his first half marathon and Spartan beast. And this is only the beginning. Welcome to the show, Bruce.
Bruce Davis: Thank you. Thank you, Rich. Thank you so much, man. Thanks for having me.
Richard Conner: Yeah. Well, thanks for being here and sharing your story. You have an incredible story this year alone. I’m just amazed by all of the races you run. I’m reading through this. I was like, I know you run a lot of races, but this is a lot of races in one year. And I didn’t quite know the full story. So excited to kind of get into your story and just learn a little bit more about you and really what was the reason that led you to, to do these types of races.
So just take it, you know, wind the clock back a little bit and just tell us a little bit about your story.
Bruce Davis: I was just, uh, you know, just that everyday guy at one point. Just, you know, we, you know, we call them the gym rats, guys always skipping leg [00:02:00] day. Um, just, you know, one day arms, two days, chest, back, whatever. And it just came routine. I just kept doing it. I kept doing it. I kept doing it.
And it was when, um, my son’s mother, when she passed. It was just I was at a lock. I just was still I had no, I felt like no direction. I felt alone. Um, I felt like I had nothing going on in my life, but a routine. The routine was like the rat race of life. Um, going to work, paying bills, coming home. You know what I’m saying?
And for me, it was, I was just tired of that. I needed to find my tribe and my why. And it was when I discovered the Spartan races that, you know, that opened up the door for me.
Richard Conner: Well, I’m so sorry for your loss and I appreciate you sharing that with us. And, you know, it’s really great that you found Spartan and you found kind of that, that sense of purpose. And I’m really curious to [00:03:00] understand or hear like why Spartan?
Um, Okay. Okay.
Bruce Davis: , why Spartan? Spartan was, um, you know, me and my friends, we had this thing where we always, um, It was like we kept putting it on the table on the shelf. Maybe next year. Maybe next year after that. Maybe next year. We just didn’t want to, you know, it was just the regular like a next year next year. And it was 1 day.
I was on the, um, I was on my phone and I seen an ad for for the Spartan stadium run and when I saw that stadium run, I said, you know what? Now is the time. It was only a month out. And when I saw it, I said, you know what? Now is the time. Let me, let me sign up. And from there, you know, 30 days I had 30 days to train.
I trained myself, no coach, no nothing. Just me and the will to just do it. It took me an hour and 40, I think I went 40 [00:04:00] minutes to finish that stadium run and um, It woke me up that that was the day I I completely like switched the light switch went right off click and I was just I was I was down I was hooked
Richard Conner: So I appreciate you sharing that, you know, a similar to, to my story, uh, you know, I Um, when I first started with Spartan. So, you know, I was, I was running as part of a team. Uh, we, we actually did train. So a little bit different from your story in that regard, but I did the right, my first race, it was a Spartan sprint.
And then, you know, after that, I’m like, I want to continue to do this, doing this. And I wanted, I could know I could do better. Right. And it was just kind of the spark was like. This is, I’m going to start this journey of doing things that I’ve never done before and overcome fears. And this was a way for me to do that.
So, but it really just took that first race to kind of light that spark.
Bruce Davis: right
Richard Conner: So, you know, tell me a little bit more about that. So you mentioned that you didn’t train 30 days, you did the race, you know, tell [00:05:00] me a little bit more about like, what did you experience during the race? And then what happened next?
Bruce Davis: It was, it was hard. My heart was just beating out of my chest. Um, one good moment. I do remember about that Rich was that I had no training with the spear throw. And I hit it on my first try. Oh, my God, I got it. Like, yeah, you did it. Yep, I sure did. So I was really excited about that. , overall, looking back at that, I had, , I discovered with what my strengths were and what my weaknesses were in doing that stadium and again, that that was that will always be My favorite race for the rest of my life because that opened the door for me that got me into into this into this world You know and after I finished I was I was hooked man I that’s that’s when you discover it all, you know, the whole boat of what what we do, you know
Richard Conner: Yeah, for sure. And, you know, for our Spartan friends who are [00:06:00] listening. They’re going to be super jealous to hear that you nailed the spear on the first try. So I, I can tell you after many races, I don’t think I’ve had a successful spear throw. So, uh, a lot of folks are probably going to be jealous to hear that you did that right out of the gate.
Bruce Davis: Right out right out the gate man. I and yesterday I did it I did it and landed it but I landed it on the second try because I knew I could do it So I threw it up and burning in it and it missed I said, I’m gonna try this again. Screw that. I’m gonna try this again. Grabbed it, concentrated on my breathing, leveled it out, boom, and hit it.
And as soon as I hit it, I said, gonna do. I was gonna sit there and let that slide. I’m gonna hit that mark. Heck no.
Richard Conner: That’s awesome. That’s awesome. All right. So, you know, what are the things that you learned when you said, you know, you learned a lot about yourself, um, during that race? Like, what are some of the things that you learned and then what, where did you take it from there? Mhm. Mhm.
Bruce Davis: , I learned the world about my weakness is where being a better runner, , learning how to condition my body, , pace.[00:07:00] , and just, uh, overall, just a sense of purpose. I mean it, you know, dealing with your mental You know, because every time you turn around, it’s something else. It’s something else.
And like I was telling a friend of mine yesterday, see Spartans all about mental. Yeah, the physical is there, but they really want to psych you out mentally. That’s why every time you turn around, even at the stadium run, every time you turn around, there’s more steps. You gotta go up. You gotta go up. They want you.
They want you elevated. They want you to keep moving those moving those legs to go up. And so when you come back down now, you got an obstacle. You know, so, , yeah, those were the things that I’ve learned, man. And, , I, I since honed in on that, I honed in on my mental. And now it’s just about focusing on strength and being able to, to deal with the problems when they come because they’re going to come.
Not everything’s 100%, you know, you know, 100%. There’s going to be some things that [00:08:00] happen out there, but you gotta be prepared for that. And I learned that, too, even with the stadium run, because things happen.
Richard Conner: Uh, Yeah, for sure. And you know, when you talk about mental, is it mental kind of the focus and overcoming the obstacles of the race you’re talking about just in general, because you mentioned that you had experienced a loss in your life and you know, you’re looking for that community. You’re looking for that purpose.
So how did you balance that? How did you put your, get your focus and your mindset in doing something as hard as a Spartan race with everything else kind of going on in your life? Silence.
Bruce Davis: , life, man. You know, , shout out to Shamika. You know, um, I love her. I love her still. , she was always, she stood by me, , even at my worst times in life. And, , when she passed away, it hurted. It still hurts. It hurts today. It never goes away. You know, and, , you know, sitting there, sitting, you know, here, you know, dwelling and not necessarily dwelling, but more so sitting [00:09:00] on those feelings, either I’m going to let them out through Spartan, or I’m just going to consume him in a negative way, you know, and so I took her passing as a sense of, of, of.
You know, she would want that from me. She would want me to thrive and be a way better person or take my, my journey to the next level. And she’s with me. She was with me through all of them, you know, um, her and my mother, you know, um, I had, uh, a lot of times on my shirts, I’ll put her name or I’ll put her face.
, you know, even when I was at the stadium run in Philadelphia, you. You know, I felt her presence there, you know, because, you know, it was because of her passing that helped me because if it wasn’t for her passing, I probably would have never, Rich, I probably would have never been doing this. You know, so it was that fuel that helped me be me, be, be who I am, you know, and I owe that to her.
I owe that to my mother.
Richard Conner: Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I appreciate you [00:10:00] sharing that. And I think your message is a Powerful one, because they, there’s, there are others probably in similar situations that are going through something. And I’ve seen through and heard through stories like yours and others, how running an obstacle course racing, um, has really kind of been there for them during tough times.
And it’s been something that they can turn to, uh, again, kind of during those difficult times. So I appreciate you sharing your story and, you know, I want others to hear this. And know that they have options, right? If they’re going through a challenging time, it’s, you know, now’s the time to, you know, if it’s something to do with being active and something to do with sports, it’s great.
Or even if it’s something else, but just kind of that, that, um, philosophy of just movement or just moving forward, right? Whether, whatever that is. Okay.
Bruce Davis: Right, right, right. Life is hard. You know, it’s what we do with it that makes us who we are. And that’s just it. You know, , life is like a [00:11:00] deck of fit, you know what I mean? Or, or, or running, you know, a half marathon, 10k, 5k, an ultra marathon, you know what I mean? , you know, and pushing through those will help you push through life.
Because it’s, it’s basically, it’s like the same thing. If you can run, if you can run a Deka fit, ain’t nothing coming, you know what I’m saying? Especially if you beat your last time, yeah man, you can do it, you can handle anything. Because of, again, what we do, you know, finding that time to train, finding that time to exercise.
Life doesn’t stop for us. Yo, we pay for this. We pay to do this. You know what I’m saying? They don’t, they don’t sponsors for us. You know what I’m saying? We pay to be here, you know, so life doesn’t stop and we can, what makes us so unique is that we can continue to do that while doing the everyday things that everybody else still does.
And, , that definitely, , with podcasts like yours, definitely is a blessing that is out there so that people, you know, Hear that and they uh, and they see that and they know that right,[00:12:00]
Richard Conner: Mhm. For sure. And I love what you said about the crossover between, you know, being active in the sports world and life. You know, I worked for somebody who was always interested in my running journey and always asking me, did you get your runs or when’s your next race? And they were really interested in one thing that they said to me was, was fascinating because they were like, look, if you could do those things, right.
If you could have the mental toughness to do those things, I know that you’re going to be able, you’re going to show up here. Right. You’re going to show up at work and you’re going to have that mental toughness. So, you know, he, even he recognized kind of the crossover between, you know, the, the active or athletic part of my life and the, the work or the professional part.
Bruce Davis: right, right, right,
Richard Conner: So let’s hear a little bit more about your running journey. So I know you did the stadium and I know you’ve, we just talked about all the races that you’ve done this year. So, you know, let’s talk about maybe one of your favorite races that you did this year and why.
Bruce Davis: man
Richard Conner: Is that too hard to choose?
Bruce Davis: Yeah, yeah because you know what they all [00:13:00] got a story, you know, if I can I don’t even know if I have a fit Okay. Because I can say, you know, the half marathon was most inspirational for me, but Hyrox was like the Holy Grail because with Hyrox, I had no running. I had no running experience.
I ran that when I, when I did Hyrox, it was, , I had 2 months of training for Hyrox. You know what I mean? And I had before Hyrox. I did maybe 2 Deka Miles. You know what I mean? So I had no running and, , to, to run to be able to run Hyrox. Was a, a, a a, an accomplishment in itself, you know, so, , so that, that’s my favorite one because of where I was at when I did it. , my, my half marathon will be the most inspirational because my running improved. My running improved. I, I did, I, I maintain a 10 minute pace, about 10 and a half minute pace. My goal was under two 30. , I did it in [00:14:00] 2 20, 32. And, , to me, and that enriched my very first one, you know, out the gate, you know, I didn’t do a 5k or a 10k.
I just, I just went right to the half marathon. , very, very inspirational, inspiring for me because I just wasn’t a runner. I, I was just one of those guys at my heaviest, I got up to 2 40, 2 40, like muscle, you know, I was going to the gym, just lifting heavy weight and then I was like, well, to, to do what I’m about to do, I gotta, I gotta bring it back down.
There’s no way I can move all of that. I mean, there’s people that can do it, but I didn’t wanna do that. I never, , two 40 was cool. But I like where I’m at now. I believe I’m at, like, my last in body scan put me at 212. And, , you know, the, yeah, yeah, so I would say Hyrox. Hyrox, because where I was at, it’s a combination between Hyrox and the Half Marathon.
Those are my favorites as of right now. Because every single race I did this year has a story. You know, they all have [00:15:00] stories. You meet people. , it’s bright, inspiring people like yourself, you know what I mean? And, , the conditions, you know, I mean, everything, man, the, the first Spartan sprint I did at Mount Vernon, April of April, it was bad.
It was bad. It rained that whole weekend. I did the sprint on a Sunday. And that the day before I ran my first Deka mile up kind of up in the same area, like an hour away in North Jersey, but it rained the whole way up there. But the deck a mile was that was was completely indoors. The whole thing was indoors.
So it was nothing. So that sprint was brutal because of the weather. People were sliding down the hills. It was muddy. It was bad. They had to, they had to shut down the bucket carry because Saturday people kept falling. It was bad. You know, , and that, that race taught me a great lesson. And the lesson is simple.
Your mind makes it harder [00:16:00] than what it actually is. It will always be that. Oh my God, I don’t want to do an ultra. That’s 30 miles. Basically, your mind makes it harder than what it is. , and I learned that. The, , with the, uh, Spartan sprint because I never, I did the rain, the cold weather. I don’t wanna go through all that stuff out there.
Who does? We all want the nice, sunny, 60, 70 degree weather, but it’s not like that. Life is not always like that. Is there going to be those clouds? And it’s what we do with those clouds that makes us who we are.
Richard Conner: You know, I love what you said about the mental part because it’s almost like you’re reading my mind. Oh, that ultra is too hard, it’s too long. That’s absolutely what I’ve been saying to, uh, to our mutual friend, coach Kevin, like, uh, you know, he’s like, Oh, the ultra is next. I’m like, I don’t know about that.
I’ve got some, I got some other goals. I don’t know if ultra is next. And then. And then the, the death race, right? The Spartan death race. Oh my gosh. I was like, the name itself should be an
Bruce Davis: All right.
Richard Conner: , but [00:17:00] it’s super cool. You know, the races that you shared. So first shout out to Hyrox. You know, we just had coach Kevin and AJ Golik on Instagram live talking about tips to crush your Hyrox, uh, race on Instagram.
So that was a lot of fun. Uh, I personally haven’t done it. I’ve only done the Spartan races and the Deka races. So I don’t know, maybe Hyrox is in my future. And then, you know, you talked about the half marathon and you were building up on the, on the OCR side, but you went right for the half marathon on the road race side.
So I think that’s interesting that you did that, but like, how was that first experience for you kind of doing that half marathon? Cause you had been doing a little bit of running, I think through OCR. So maybe you felt a little bit more prepared to do that race.
Bruce Davis: Right. Yes. And no. Right. And that’s a great question, by the way. Shout out the rich for that question. That’s a good one. Right. Um, what it was was this whole year, man, this whole year, everything I thought about this when I saw Rich Ryan win the world championship in Atlantic City last year at the Deka world [00:18:00] championships.
I had this whole 2023.
When I saw that it was like Christmas for me when I was in Atlantic City watching this and that’s when I first met coach Kevin. Shout out to coach Kevin underdog all day. I got mad love for my brothers over there, including my man, rich. , so I, when I, when I started running, it was January, February, , April.
April was when I started running. Prior to that, Rich, there was no running. I did no running. I had no coach. I had no nothing. It was all me just learning online. You know, I had no plan, no structure until April. April was when I finally built up my got my structure in place, got my coach in place. , shout out the Robert Woods.
Was he work out? , and we, he started putting things in place for me to start running, you know, interval running, progression, running, easy runs, long runs after I finished high rocks. And I started training for, , because at [00:19:00] the high rock was over. My mind went right towards the half marathon and we put together my coach rather put together the plan for me and that running progression, all of that help with that could fit with everything else.
I had in the middle. So the OCR, the OCR side of what I’m doing, I’ve rarely do any running in the OCR. , I’ll power walk. I’ll go up. If it’s a nice, smooth, like level, then I’ll do like a zone to light run. , but for the most part, it’s just living the experience and enjoying myself and meeting like minded people.
If we are hybrid races where I’ll be into really trying to, you know, PR, , get in and, you know, compare my time for my last time, , like, like, like the deck of strongs, I did four of them. So the best time I did was like 16 and some change. You know what I’m saying? And that was my third one.
My fourth one, I wound up doing 18 minutes. You know, I mean, but then I stopped because I was other deck a mile and then high rocks [00:20:00] and all of that. So, , so, so my running just, I used running as, as a, as a base. For everything else, especially now. So me, me running for the half marathon automatically is preparing my mind for the full marathon or for the rocky run or for the, the beast that, no, my legs wouldn’t be able to take all that pounding had I not been doing all my running.
Richard Conner: Running is key. Yeah, for sure.
Bruce Davis: Sure. Yes, sir.
Richard Conner: So, you know, tell me a little bit about one of the questions I like to ask the guests that come on the show is what is the biggest obstacle that you faced, you know, during this part of your journey and then how did you overcome it?
Bruce Davis: , the biggest, the biggest obstacle so far. , well, I want to say right now, my biggest obstacle. Right now it was running, was running my, , I want to say running the half marathon. That was the biggest [00:21:00] obstacle because I’m constantly, that was the longest I was, the longest I was on my feet as far as like, not a sense of now the Spartan beast, but even with high rocks, I wasn’t on my feet that long.
And it’s mixed, you’re not doing all, you’re not constantly running like you’re, like you’re constantly running at the half marathon. So, I mean, yeah, yeah, I overcame it by my mindset. You know, my mindset, , persevering, thinking about my loved ones, thinking about, , you know, my loved ones whose past,, and, you know, just grit and, and, and determination, man. Like, I’m not, anything I signed up for, I am going to make sure it gets done, no matter what. Now, that doesn’t mean, Rich, that, hey, like, like, like, for example, I got the Ultra, right, in April. And if I fail, then I fail. But I go with the understanding and knowing, guess what, I’m coming right back.
And I’m going to rock it the next time. So, like, I’m, I’m, I’m planning, I got plans for all of that.[00:22:00]
Richard Conner: So incredible running journey, incredible OCR journey so far. What’s next for you? What’s coming up for the balance of this year and into next year? Hi.
Bruce Davis: Oh, man. , you know, I got a saying, I probably got it from somebody, you know, but I say a lot, especially when I’m out there on the out there on the trails or a minute event, there’s always another race. , when, when you, when we are at races that race, whether, whether we started at that wave or our waves later, the race is already done because we’re here.
It’s always the next race and that race that we’re in is preparation for that next race, no matter what. , so my next race that I got coming up is I have, , I’m looking to benchmark my, my 5 K and 10 K, , later this month, October 21st. That’s the goal. I gotta, I gotta, I gotta pay for it on one signup. I haven’t done it yet.
Right. That’s the, I’m though, I’m,[00:23:00] , I have the Philadelphia Rocky Run. That’s the first time I’m ever doing that. I al that’s another one. I always wanted to do that run, but never did it. But now I, I mean, , they have three, they have three, , versions of that. They got the five K, then the 10 K. And if you do both, that’s the Italian Stallion challenge.
Basically, you know, half marathon. So I signed up for the half marathon. , and then that very next week, I’ll do the Philadelphia full marathon and, , that’s it after the marathon. I’m done for the year. , I’m with this train for next year. And, , next year, right now, I got signed up for the Spartan ultra.
I’m making that rich. I’m making that a whole trifecta weekend that weekend. So I’m gonna do the ultra and then the super and sprint that Sunday. ,
Richard Conner: Okay, all right, well, the world’s going to hear it, you put it out into the world and we’re going to be there cheering you on.
Bruce Davis: My man. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Oh and my future. I’m sorry No, no, no talk to I still got them that I signed up Hyrox. I got high rocks DC , that’s [00:24:00] March of 2020 next year and now since I got one of the books, it’s PR time. Now, you know, I got my numbers. The goal is simple beat the numbers and that’s all man.
You know, this is ongoing. This is ongoing for us. I’m not this is it for me. This is I found my people, you know what I mean? And I love I love what you do. I love the community. We was out there singing never going to give you up. On the trail yesterday, you know, because I had that song on my speaker and it, , the battery dies.
So they remembered it and we started singing together at the water station.
Richard Conner: That’s awesome.
Bruce Davis: That’s so 2024 man. God bless. It’s going to be a fun year. I’m looking to run more and, um, I’m just so thankful for all of this. And I just look forward to having more stories.
Richard Conner: All right. Well, we look forward to having those stories here on the show. So, Bruce, kind of wind down here. What is the one thing you would say to our community [00:25:00] to inspire them to run while they’re going through a difficult time?
Bruce Davis: I would say use that difficult time as fuel and fire and passion to pursue greatness. You know what I mean? Let it become what it needs to become in you to be the person you need to become. Because life doesn’t stop for any of us. , it moves forward just as there are bad times. There are good times.
It’s what we do. , that makes us who we are, you know, so get off that couch, , get out there, get those miles in, get those stories, , you know, don’t be that person because that could have been me that person 10 years from now, 2015 years from now. I wish I did it. You know, I wish I, that’s the worst feeling and having, I haven’t gotten there.
Thank God. Now I can sit back, I sit back and look at the photos and you get that, that smile, [00:26:00] that smile because you did it. Not only did you do it, you trained for it. You, you worked 12 hours and then you still found a half an hour, two hours just to go out there and run or go out there and do some threshold work.
You know what I mean? You know what I mean? Compromise running work. Just because you know you want to be at your best when you are out there. Come race day. So get off the couch. Get off the couch, man. That couch is comfortable. It is. I have a comfortable couch back there. I can sit right there and play a game all day.
You know, it’s about life’s about living. So, you know, we got to start living. So live. That’s what I would say. I would say live.
Richard Conner: Love it. Love it. Bruce, thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate you sharing your story, your, your, you know, kind of your origin story, your running journey and advice for our community. So how can our listeners find you and follow you online? Um,
Bruce Davis: , I mean, like, in my past life, past life, even in this life, um, I call myself a super [00:27:00] editor. I’m a video editor. I’ve won awards in video production for ten plus years. So, a lot of people, like, they don’t, I don’t have like B Fit and all that. It’s like B Productions. So if they looked on YouTube for B Productions, , that would be a good way to find me.
, and I guess here, or they can email me if you ever want, you know, uh, Bruce Davis, the number 20 at gmail. com. That’s a great way. A great, you know, simpler way to get at me. , and that’s about it, man, my, my YouTube channel has a lot of my fitness journey videos. , a lot of animations that I do inspiring other people that I meet, , in the fitness hybrid community, , people that I look up to and, uh, and, and people that I inspire.
I get that too, you know, from people saying, Bruce, man, you inspire me, man. Thank you so much. Hey, I’m just, I’m just trying to live, man. I’m just like you, you just like you. I just, I just want my kids to be proud of me. I want my loved ones to be proud of me, my family, and, , that’d be, like I said, the best way to get to me with my email or my YouTube channel, you know, and, um, and, uh, [00:28:00] yeah, that’s it.
Richard Conner: Love it. Love it. All right. So I’ll put that information in the show notes to make it easy for our listeners to find and follow you. Again, Bruce, thank you so much for coming on the show. And have a great day.
Outro: That’s it for this episode of inspire to run podcast. We hope you are inspired to take control of your health and fitness and take it to the next level. Be sure to click the subscribe button to join our community. And also, please rate and review. Thanks for listening.